Saturday, April 11. 2009Second Amendment Under Fire?Comments
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john lott , more guns less crime, great job gen.
#1
steve riedel
on
2009-04-11 20:18
(Reply)
""You should have no problem showing that the U.S. has lower murder rates, robbery rates, etc. than say Australia, Japan, or the U.K., right? Go on, make the comparison, I DARE YOU.""
Wow, this idiocy isn't just an act with you is it?
The USA has a much lower rate of most serious crime than nearly all of Europe, and the UK in particular.
You can view the International Crime Victim Survey here:
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1117972
And, the rate at which crimes of violence are committed in any society exactly track the percantage of the population made up of poor minorities, or recent immigrants, something that the US leads Japan in by a wide margin. The level of firearms ownership is not at all as closely linked.
Rather than banning guns, we could achieve a rapid and dramatic reduction in the rate of these crimes by simply enforcing our immigration laws, something you pinheaded liberals consistently oppose. You jackasses are responsible for our immigration problems, and the destruction of the black family in America. You jackasses are responsible for our crime rate, not the gun owners.
#1.1
AngeloD
on
2009-04-19 16:13
(Reply)
"I believe the statistics on this point are clear - the more restrictive the firearms laws, on balance, the more crime. This is just plain common sense; the "bad guys" would much rather their victims not be armed, as it increases their odds of getting away with their crime."
Tell this utterly idiotic shit to the Japanese and see how far you get. But before doing this, you might want to compare gn homicide rates in the U.S. with those in Japan. And because the gun nuts will scream, "well, the Japanese criminals just use knives instead!" then compare overall homicide rates between the two countries. Far easier to murder moving victims with a gun than with a knife, right?
Heck, you needn't restrict yourselves to homicide, find out how often people get robbed or banks get held up at knifepoint in Japan. You see, what is truly "common sense" here is that if no one has a gun, no one commits a crime using a gun, and no one gets murdered by a gun. So simple, even a conservative could understand.
You claim that guns prevent so many crimes, thereby justifying there existence. Well then, which country has lower murder rates -- the gun-saturated U.S., or say any advanced industrialized country that has sought ON A NATIONWIDE (not piecemeal) LEVEL to sharply restrict ownership of guns? You should have no problem showing that the U.S. has lower murder rates, robbery rates, etc. than say Australia, Japan, or the U.K., right? Go on, make the comparison, I DARE YOU.
"If it is your wife, daughter, grandmother or niece that is the intended victim of a 250lb drug-crazed rapist are you willing to tell her that she is prohibited by the law from defending herself with the only device known to man that will render her 120lb mind and body the precise equal of that assailant?"
Completely stupid crap. The "precise equal"???? Hell, the gun gives her a definite STRONG edge in your made-up scenario! That's why, to counter such a possibility, the would-be rapist need only get a gun before proceeding, and, HAVING (unlike his victim) FOREKNOWLEDGE THAT A CRIME IS TO BE COMMITTED, draw this gun first, and tell your wife to reach for the sky! How many women are raped each year in the U.S. at gunpoint??? How often has a woman claimed that a gun prevented her from getting raped?
"I rest my case."
What case? Your case is as riddled with holes as the bodies of the victims of Columbine. Too bad for them, huh? But your selfish property rights supersede their RIGHT TO LIVE.
#2
Herman
on
2009-04-12 10:43
(Reply)
How many murders are committed (with or without firearms) in Switzerland Herman?
I cited that, but you ignored it. Why?
I'll tell you why - because it doesn't fit the preconceived fear-mongering nonsense you were spewing in your "reply".
I approved your comment because it is illustrative of the mouth-breathing, spittle-dripping insanity on the other side of this debate.
Oh, I cited Australia's insane INCREASE in firearms crimes AFTER they banned all semi-automatic (that is, self-LOADING) firearms too. You cite Australia as an example of where gun control works? Are you insane?
Again - nationwide? No problem - the Swiss are arguably the most-heavily-armed population *on the planet*, and yet their murder rate is vanishingly small.
The facts in the United States are that when "must issue" concealed carry becomes the law, that state experiences a massive decrease in violent crime. That's why 40 states now have it - it leads to LESS crime, not more.
As for Columbine, you are aware, I assume, that the assailants brought two propane-tank based BOMBS into the school, right? Due to a defect in their design they did not go off. Fortunately too, because they would have killed far more people than the firearms had they exploded.
I assume you're prepared to ban propane tanks (and the propane that goes in them) too, right?
#2.1
Karl
on
2009-04-12 11:17
(Reply)
Excellent response to ABC's heavily promoted BS.
#2.1.1
JDS
on
2009-04-12 14:00
(Reply)
they banned guns in washington dc years ago and we all know that there is no gun crime in dc, right?
#3
steve riedel
on
2009-04-12 12:22
(Reply)
Thank goodness you finally moved past that stupid Sarah Palin posting.
#4
Betty Pawsheifer
on
2009-04-12 22:19
(Reply)
Guns save far more lives than are taken with them. You can't stop stupid people from doing stupid things.
#5
Stu Strickler
on
2009-04-13 09:36
(Reply)
If those demanding stricter “Gun Control” laws, were truly interested in stopping Crime and the criminal from using firearms in the commission of their crime. Then they would be Screaming “Criminal Control” and a “Citizens Justice System” instead of “Gun Control” and supporting our “Criminal Justice System”.
Their actions only support their desire to disarm America and strip us of our rights guaranteed under the Constitution. By not controlling the criminals they will (and do) use each incident as a means to that end.
#6
C_Mike
on
2009-04-13 12:22
(Reply)
This post is somewhat misleading. First of all, it's not clear that a heavily armed Jewish population would resist AND be successful in its resistance. Hitler was determined to wipe them out no matter what.
2nd of all, Regulations Against the Jews' Possession of Weapons was passed on 11 November 1938. Of course, Hitler became a supreme "Führer und Reichskanzler" in August '34 and he was in total control well before then. The 3rd Reich was well in its 4th year by the time the Nazi Weapons Act was passed. As you can see, Hitler didn't need to ban guns to exert total control -- he had it already, guns or not.
Same goes for Stalin & Hussein. Both ruled a heavily armed population (in case of Stalin, it was post WW1 & the october revolution+civil war.) In Iraq, everybody had an AK47.
Your comment about Switzerland is highly misleading. The Swiss are heavily armed, yes but mostly with rifles. Most have no ammunition and CC permits are very difficult to get.
Regarding CC permits. When TX started allowing CC, crime did not go down.
Basically, your whole argument boils down to -- arm the population and crime will go down. It's not that simple.
#7
Susan
on
2009-04-13 23:21
(Reply)
No, my argument is that statistically you are no worse off with "must issue", and in many cases you've been a LOT better off, with Florida being just one example.
It's darn hard to argue with the DC stats - most stringent gun laws in the nation (prior to Heller), and a murder rate that would make a third-world shithole proud.
The simple reality is that the bad guys don't care about gun laws. Never have, never will. Therefore gun laws always serve to disarm only the good guys.
#7.1
Karl
on
2009-04-13 23:31
(Reply)
Gun laws may disarm only the good guys, that's true. HOWEVER. Arming the good guys does NOT make the crime go down necessarily, NOR does it prevent a dictator from usurping power.
The point is that guns have no relation to the type of government a country has. Some countries have dictatorships and heavily armed populace, some countries are democracies and guns are banned.
#7.1.1
Susan
on
2009-04-14 18:08
(Reply)
Statistically you're wrong - "must issue" frequently has a solid positive impact on crime rates and has never been shown to have a statistically-significant negative impact. The simple reality is this: law-abiding citizens don't run around shooting people. Further, Australia listened to the gun banners, confiscated all semi-automatic weapons in lawful ownership and was treated to a massive increase in violent firearm crime as a consequence.
As for the Second Amendment's original purpose, The Founders thought it was important and so do I. The History of The Second Amendment, in fact, is that it was necessary in order to get The Constitution ratified - The States refused without it (and the other nine original amendments in The Bill of Rights.) The unfortunate reality of that debate in the present tense is that if we disarm and find we do need it there will be ability to recover from that mistake.
I'll pass; there are dozens of nations that you may emigrate to that are allegedly "representative republics" if you believe you're better off without it.
#7.1.1.1
Karl
on
2009-04-14 18:25
(Reply)
Interesting musings, as it not only ties into the March - April period when some folks go a little crazy (Waco, Columbine, and the recent shootings), but my guess is by sheer coincidence. it ties into the 60 Minutes show aired 4/12/09 (available on demand at cbsnews.com).
According to what I saw, any person (even convicted felons) can go to a gun show (at least in Virginia) and buy a gun from a so-called private citizen with no background check at all. If that is true, there are more than a few maniacs amongst us that can go berserk at any moment.
This is not good.
#8
Charles
on
2009-04-14 12:54
(Reply)
That "loophole" technically exists for ANY private firearm sale. Think about it - how do you GUARANTEE that a firearm sale between private citizens is tracked? NICS is not a tracking system (at least in the law, although if you believe that in fact...) it is a verification of elegibility system, with (in the law) mandated destruction of records (again, if you believe that.)
Here's the problem in terms of PRACTICALITY - while I can sell you one of my guns, if you're inelegible and I'm NEGLIGENT in doing so I'm risking rather severe penalties.
Oh, and all (modern) firearms have serial numbers and they're engraved/stamped - and not only very hard to remove, but rather unlawful to remove. Thus, if I sell you one of my firearms (privately) and you use it to commit a crime, it can be traced back to the person who originally bought it at retail, and from there, through its ownership, and when (not if) it is I'm on the hook for some serious trouble.
There are few sane people who are willing to sell you a gun that they have reason to believe will be used to commit a crime for this very reason; why would they be willing to do felony jail time so you can commit a crime? If I'm engaged in the business of selling and buying firearms I need a FFL (gun show or not) and must follow the NICS law (gun show or not.)
The "gun show loophole" is more myth than reality; the reality is that most illicit firearms are either stolen (usually via commission of a separate felony) or illegaly imported (much as are drugs.) Owners of significant firearms collections have strong incentives to invest in defensive measures against theft (gun safes and similar) as the value of their collection is typically several times the cost of the safe and said safe also doubles for records and other valuables storage, never mind getting you a VERY significant insurance discount. A decent-sized gun safe (a REAL safe, not a lock box) is around $1,000, weighs upwards of 500lbs (some weigh well over 1,000lbs!) and are a REAL BITCH to try to steal (especially if you own your house and can bolt it down to the floor!)
#8.1
Karl
on
2009-04-14 13:24
(Reply)
Karl, this should be required reading for anyone who loves freedom and our country:
JUDGE ANDREW NAPOLITANO: Six Things You Should Know About the Homeland Security Report on ‘Rightwing Extremism’
By Judge Andrew Napolitano
http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/2009/04/15/napolitano_homeland_security/
#9
SPECTRE of Deflation
on
2009-04-16 10:06
(Reply)
"Your case is as riddled with holes as the bodies of the victims of Columbine." Harris and Klebold violated the National Firearms Act of 1934 at least 97 times. They constructed 2 short barreled shotguns, and 95 destructive devices including CO2 bombs, pipe bombs, gasoline bombs, and propane bombs. Each violation of the NFA can result in 10 years of imprisonment and $250,000 fine. The pair faced nearly a millenium in prison and $24 Million in fines before the first shot was even fired. And that's not including the OTHER laws they broke including straw purchase of firearms, possession of firearms and explosives on school property. You sir are a fool if you think more slap on the wrist laws would have prevented their murderous plans when they willingly violated the harshest firearms law on the books 97 times.
#10
nfa1934
on
2009-04-19 13:16
(Reply)
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